How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion in the course of the first yr of his second time period

Transcript

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

That is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. President Donald Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion final yr, which was the primary yr of his second time period. How did he handle to do this? That is what my visitor, New York Instances reporter Eric Lipton, has been investigating. He is uncovered enterprise offers made by Trump and/or his sons, Don Jr. and Eric, that exploit the facility of the presidency for self-enrichment, current conflicts of curiosity and violate norms. Lipton additionally uncovered conflicts of curiosity associated to Trump’s commerce secretary, Howard Lutnick, in addition to Lutnick’s two sons. This yr, Lipton gained a Pulitzer Prize as a part of a workforce of Instances reporters who investigated how the president and his household have profited from White Home deal-making. This was Lipton’s fourth Pulitzer.

Final month, Lipton and 4 different Instances reporters acquired one thing else on account of their reporting – subpoenas from the Justice Division. The DOJ needed to know the reporter’s sources for a narrative concerning the luxurious aircraft donated as a present to Trump from Qatar. At Trump’s insistence that it function Air Pressure One, it needed to be retrofitted with safety measures it wasn’t designed to accommodate, and it needed to be completed inside a yr to fulfill Trump’s deadline of the July Fourth Sesquicentennial celebration. Later in July, Trump made his first worldwide flight in it for a NATO summit in Turkey, however he used an older Air Pressure One on the best way again. The Instances reporters uncovered that this was as a result of after a ceasefire with Iran fell aside and the conflict resumed, there was a reputable menace towards Trump, and the retrofitted aircraft lacked adequate safety measures, regardless of Trump’s earlier insistence that it was safe. Different latest tales Lipton has written about pertain to the industries the Trump administration regulates or makes choices about and the way he or his sons additionally made enterprise offers in these sectors, together with cryptocurrency, mining uncommon earth metals and nuclear energy. We recorded our interview yesterday.

Eric Lipton, welcome again to FRESH AIR. Congratulations in your fourth Pulitzer.

ERIC LIPTON: Thanks a lot for having me.

GROSS: So earlier than we get to the subpoena, are you able to briefly add extra to the Air Pressure One story that acquired you – I used to be going to say gained you (laughter) – the subpoena?

LIPTON: Yeah. I imply, we had been monitoring Trump’s curiosity in having a brand new Air Pressure One since early 2025. After he returned to the White Home, he was instantly obsessive about having a brand new aircraft. He felt just like the outdated Air Pressure One doesn’t form of meet his requirements, and it wasn’t worthy of a pacesetter, like, the Center East leaders have these luxurious planes. He was very jealous, and he mentioned so, and he needed a recent new aircraft with luxurious trappings. And so, as of early ’25, we began to take a look at this aircraft that he recognized that he needed to get ahold of from the Qatari authorities.

And we had been already skeptical by what we had been instructed by folks of the Air Pressure that it may ever be really able to function a cellular White Home command heart for the USA authorities. And so as soon as it was delivered, we instantly started investigating that, and it grew to become apparent primarily based on the conversations that we had that there have been shortcomings. There have been shortcuts that had been taken to get the aircraft to the president shortly, not solely with its air protection programs, however with different smaller issues like particular exits which might be there which might be safer, which might be decrease and which have built-in stairs that the president has to land at an airport with out discover, and there is not floor crews, or a second backup energy system for the aircraft that enables its engines to begin quicker, so it may possibly get off the bottom shortly if it has to, or if it has an influence failure, it may possibly nonetheless talk internationally with navy leaders or different world leaders. So these are issues which might be lacking within the retrofitted aircraft and the frenzy to get it to him and get him a luxurious trip.

GROSS: And even little issues, like, a whole lot of the seats face sideways as an alternative of going through ahead, why is that principally prohibited on Air Pressure One?

LIPTON: Properly, the FAA, when it certifies planes, it assumes that the aircraft is ready for an emergency touchdown that is going to have a fairly intense, you realize, g-force in your physique. And so it assessments the chairs to anticipate that drive of an emergency touchdown. However when it is a sideways-facing chair, it has a distinct stress in your physique. So this aircraft has sideways-facing chairs. It is a luxurious setting. You realize, it is a lounge form of a setup. It is not likely like a passenger aircraft. In order that they needed to get certification from the FAA to be form of a particular situation exterior of the traditional FAA. And that did not come till the day the aircraft began flying on July 1 of 2026.

GROSS: I’ve to say, it is not simply Trump who flies on this aircraft. I imply, there’s his – typically his Cupboard members, different folks from his workforce, journalists.

LIPTON: It is true. I imply, it carries, you realize, Cupboard members. It carries different world leaders, members of Congress. You realize, there are dozens of individuals on that flight when he goes, you realize, greater than 100 at occasions. I imply, the reality of the matter is that this can be a a lot newer aircraft than the outdated Air Pressure One which has been round since George H.W. Bush, and to some extent, it is a safer platform within the extent that it is a newer aircraft, nevertheless it doesn’t have all the safety trappings which might be related to Air Pressure One. And that is a part of the rationale that he acknowledged, you realize, that he will max it up later this yr, and they will take it out of service and to attempt to add some further measures to it to attempt to get it nearer to the usual that we count on these days to have, you realize, form of a flying Oval Workplace.

GROSS: So how a lot have taxpayers already spent retrofitting this aircraft?

LIPTON: I imply, it is form of loopy, however they will not inform us. But it surely’s clearly – it is near $1 billion, it seems. They’d mentioned publicly that it was one thing round $400 million even after the aircraft was donated, however we all know that it was a whole bunch of hundreds of thousands of {dollars} along with that, as a result of they rushed a lot to attempt to get this aircraft prepared that they really had to purchase one other Lufthansa 747-8 to coach the pilots to fly this new aircraft as a result of it has a distinct cockpit than the outdated Air Pressure One. First, they leased an Atlas cargo aircraft at a value of a whole bunch of 1000’s of {dollars} a month, after which they purchased one other Lufthansa aircraft, which is sitting now in a hangar in – on the Andrews, you realize, Air Pressure facility in Maryland, merely to coach the pilots on it, as a result of they needed to transition so shortly to this as a result of Trump needed his new aircraft.

GROSS: Yet one more factor concerning the safety measures. As a result of that aircraft wasn’t constructed for the form of safety that Air Pressure One wants, it is onerous to retrofit it for among the safety wants as a result of it is simply not designed for it.

LIPTON: That is proper. I imply, the Air Pressure One is definitely designed to have the ability to preserve flying within the occasion of a nuclear conflict – I imply, a horrible potential situation. So they really put, like, particular shielding round the entire electrical wires and electrical elements in order that if there have been to be an electromagnetic pulse, which might outcome from a nuclear weapon, that it does not lose electrical energy, which clearly – think about what would occur on a aircraft if it misplaced electrical energy. That is an unbelievably sophisticated process. It’s a must to principally, you realize, get – expose the entire partitions all the way down to the wiring after which cowl the entire wiring to place a protect across the wiring in order that it is not, you realize, disrupted by an electromagnetic pulse. That takes – in and of itself is a massively time consuming process that would not be finished within the quick time frame that Trump needed to retrofit that aircraft.

GROSS: So let’s speak concerning the subpoena. So that you had been served immediately. Proper?

LIPTON: Yeah. I can not speak about it an excessive amount of, underneath directions of attorneys. However my household and I had been getting back from dinner on a Friday evening, and as we arrived dwelling, the FBI brokers had been sitting parked close to our home, and so they got here out of their automobiles to the entrance of our home as my youngsters had been exterior taking part in with, you realize, really little sparklers after July Fourth. And so they introduced me with this subpoena, and it mentioned that I wanted to report back to courtroom to testify about our work round Air Pressure One.

GROSS: So it has been reported – and I do know you may’t actually speak about this, nevertheless it’s been reported that your cellphone data had been subpoenaed, too. That is been quashed. So…

LIPTON: Yeah. That is proper. They…

GROSS: …That is not taking place. However, you realize, I am pondering, like, in case your cellphone data had been really subpoenaed, if the subpoena wasn’t quashed, they’d have entry not solely to all of your private calls however maybe to a whole lot of different sources having nothing to do with the story that they are really investigating, however giving them leads in the event that they wish to crack down on different sources that you’ve got spoken to through the years. So are you able to say something about The New York Instances’ strategy to combating the subpoenas and upholding the correct of journalists to not title their sources?

LIPTON: I imply, I – you realize, The New York Instances filed a movement in courtroom to quash the subpoenas. It was very fantastically crafted. It was all concerning the freedom of the press and the essential function that we play in society and democracy. And I used to be very pleased with the extraordinary effort that the paper put to articulate these arguments. And – however I can not get into the specifics of the case actually in any respect, aside from the truth that after these motions had been launched, the subpoenas had been withdrawn.

GROSS: Now, there have been reporters from The Washington Put up and Wall Avenue Journal who had been additionally – not associated to this story, however who’ve additionally been subpoenaed by the Justice Division. There is a freelance author who wrote for the Instances who additionally acquired a subpoena. So it appears to be a sample of subpoenaing journalists. And I am pondering, OK. The Washington Put up, Wall Avenue Journal, New York Instances – they’re all prime information organizations. They’ve prime authorized departments. What number of publications can afford to help their journalists? I imply, financially help all of the authorized charges and the time and the power to again up their reporters after they’re subpoenaed for his or her sources.

LIPTON: Clearly, this – you realize, this was to intimidate us. However our response after we acquired the subpoenas was simply to recommit to investigating extra – spending extra time on the story. We instantly initiated a two weeks of deeper reporting. And we did a super-comprehensive story that recognized additional safety shortcomings on Air Pressure One. So we weren’t intimidated, and we simply – we had been dedicated to the story. And I am actually proud to work on a newspaper that has the sources and the willpower to pursue tales, you realize, no matter folks making an attempt to get in our approach.

GROSS: Properly, let’s take a brief break right here. Let me reintroduce you. My visitor is four-time Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter Eric Lipton of The New York Instances. We’ll be proper again. That is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF TIM DELAUGHTER’S “DEBATE MONTAGE”)

GROSS: That is FRESH AIR. Let’s get again to the interview I recorded yesterday with New York Instances reporter Eric Lipton. He is been investigating how President Trump and his household have profited from self-enriching White Home deal-making, the conflicts of curiosity these enterprise offers current and the moral questions they increase.

So the Air Pressure One story that we have been speaking about – it is a part of your beat, which is profiteering from the presidency and the interconnection between insurance policies and alliances he is making and the private monetary offers he and/or his sons are making. So let’s speak about one of many offers that you simply just lately wrote about pertaining to the tungsten mining business. And earlier than we get into the main points, why is tungsten so essential now?

LIPTON: So the USA wants sure metals to fabricate every kind of merchandise. However tungsten is especially essential as a result of it’s an extremely onerous and heat-resistant steel that’s important for missiles and different navy makes use of. And so for the navy, it is simply important to have entry to a adequate provide of tungsten at a time after we’re, you realize, at conflict within the Center East and we’re serving to in Ukraine. And so, subsequently, now we have to have a gentle provide of it. However China has been reducing off our provide to tungsten as a part of a commerce retaliation towards President Trump and his tariffs.

So there’s been an effort to attempt to improve the USA’ entry to tungsten and a bunch of different vital metals, and the Trump administration has been pouring an unlimited quantity of federal {dollars} into increasing our provide to those vital metals. And that is what we examined in our investigation. My colleague Paul Sonne and I checked out this.

GROSS: So the nation the place Trump has reduce an enormous deal when it comes to mining for tungsten is in Kazakhstan. Why Kazakhstan?

LIPTON: Kazakhstan is located in-between Russia and China, occurs to have a very massive provide of it sitting within the floor. It is one of many largest untapped provides of tungsten on the earth sitting there, that the Soviets had first considered exploiting. However they – the Soviet Union collapsed earlier than they had been ever capable of do it. And so there’s – the positioning is there, you realize, ready for somebody to seize. It is probably $80 billion value of tungsten within the floor there.

And so that is how the USA then acquired concerned. Each the commerce secretary, Howard Lutnick, and the president, Trump, grew to become concerned in negotiations in late 2025 with the president of Kazakhstan about probably giving a small American-based firm the correct to open up a mine there and to extract that tungsten and to ship a bunch of it to the USA.

GROSS: So who is that this? What is that this small firm? And have they got expertise in tungsten mining?

LIPTON: I imply, the small firm at the moment goes by the title of Kaz Assets. The chief govt there and founder does have some expertise within the mining sector. However they aren’t a – form of, like, a Freeport-McMoRan – you realize, enormous world mining operator. They seem to be a very small operation that doesn’t have an excessive amount of expertise in really pulling tons of steel out of the bottom. And so they wanted to lift capital. They wanted to lift cash. And so they’ve come to the federal authorities to lift, you realize, billions of {dollars} in financing to truly construct the mine.

Concurrently they had been asking for assist from the USA authorities to get entry to this mining web site, they had been additionally asking for assist from the Commerce Division’s, you realize, related financing arms to truly assist cowl the price of constructing the mine.

GROSS: So why was this firm chosen? Would not have a whole lot of expertise. Would not have the capital. It is a small firm, comparatively talking. How did they get chosen?

LIPTON: It is true that the corporate had began working with the Biden administration to attempt to see whether or not or not there have been metals in Kazakhstan that it may faucet into. And so it did have a relationship with the federal authorities that predated Trump’s return to workplace. However as soon as the – Howard Lutnick grew to become the commerce secretary, he grew to become an unlimited advocate of this firm. And he really wrote a letter to the president of Kazakhstan, repeatedly urging the president of Kazakhstan to select this one firm to be their accomplice to open the mine there for tungsten. And so it was a little bit of an open query as to why the USA was so intensely embracing this one firm. And that was a part of what we had been analyzing in our investigation.

GROSS: What’d you find out about that?

LIPTON: I imply, the extra we seemed into it, what we discovered is that not solely was the corporate working with the Trump administration however that individually, by means of funding companions, that it was working with Eric Trump and Donald Trump Jr. by means of a collection of different, you realize, restricted legal responsibility firms and that individually, one of many enterprise companions within the deal had turned to Howard Lutnick’s sons to lift a whole bunch of hundreds of thousands of {dollars} in capital concurrently Howard Lutnick was concerned in negotiating entry by these executives to the mine. So what we discovered was that there have been household connections financially to the enterprise companions concerned in the identical deal.

GROSS: Trump’s sons Don Jr. and Eric began making associated investments earlier than the deal was made public. So nobody else knew concerning the deal. Would you think about {that a} type of insider buying and selling?

LIPTON: I imply, that will get a bit of bit farther than – you realize, than the proof that I’ve. What I do know is that they had been teamed up with this firm known as Dominari Securities, which is predicated in Trump Tower in New York, and that they grew to become traders in a restricted legal responsibility firm that was seeking to put money into the vital minerals sector. And across the identical time as Howard Lutnick and the president had been concerned in negotiating entry to this mine, they made their first funding within the firm that’s now known as Kaz Assets. It’s actually odd to see that the sons of the president had been really invested in an organization that the president himself was concerned in serving to get this deal in Kazakhstan. And it is why we wrote that story.

GROSS: Now, in studying this story, there are some actually sophisticated – at the least to me, they appear actually sophisticated – enterprise offers, the place one firm buys one other firm and modifications the title of the corporate. And I am questioning if that could be a approach of creating issues extra opaque and form of obscuring who the folks behind these investments are and who the people who find themselves profiting are – for instance, obscuring the connection of Trump’s sons to those firms and to those offers. Is that an correct approach of studying it as a chance?

LIPTON: I believe the online results of all of those monetary transactions – the permutations that had been, you realize, subsequent to inconceivable to trace – was that it did obscure who the traders had been. And it takes a whole lot of effort to strive to determine the sequence of transformations of those numerous company entities. I imply, it was loopy. They bought this tiny Hong Kong-based road-building firm that was, you realize, practically bankrupt. And so they bought it as a result of it was NASDAQ-traded, after which they modified its title. They took it over. And it grew to become a car for them to purchase into this New York tungsten mining firm, and it was nearly inconceivable to trace.

However was that intentional? I do not essentially assume so as a result of in the end they had been those that disclosed that the Trumps had been concerned within the deal as soon as it really grew to become public in April of 2026. However I believe this illustrates the assorted sophisticated ways in which individuals are making an attempt to lift cash with out doing conventional, like, preliminary public choices. It is a – principally a workaround to lift capital on the inventory markets with out really, you realize, constructing an organization from the bottom up.

GROSS: So now the Trump sons are invested in an organization that’s going or has already turn into public – publicly traded on the inventory market?

LIPTON: It’s publicly traded. That was a part of it. The maneuver was to purchase this failing Hong Kong-based street builder to merge with the corporate that is going to mine the tungsten in Kazakhstan. So now it is a publicly traded operation.

GROSS: OK. So do the Trump sons have a chance to revenue from the truth that it is public – that it is publicly traded?

LIPTON: The inventory has really declined since we wrote the story. I believe there is a truthful quantity of skepticism about this deal and an open query as as to whether or not they’re nonetheless going to get the federal financing. But when this undertaking is profitable and so they get the federal financing – you realize, greater than $1 billion in federal financing to truly construct the mine – and so they begin mining, then, sure, there’s the potential to make an excessive amount of cash for the entire traders.

There’s a whole lot of ifs nonetheless with this undertaking. It is unclear if it is going to occur. However, I imply, what we have seen – the sample we’re seeing – is that the Trump sons are investing in a bunch of various sectors that the president is concerned in setting coverage. It is cryptocurrency. It is the predictions markets. It is the nuclear power business. It is the mining business. And so they assume that these are strikes which might be – that present their patriotism, that they are supporting their father’s agenda. However on the identical time, as their father is taking actions that profit their enterprise plans, they’re transferring in behind their dad and making investments that profit from their dad’s actions.

GROSS: Properly, it is time for one more break right here, so let me reintroduce you. My visitor is four-time Pulitzer Prize-winning New York Instances reporter Eric Lipton. We’ll be proper again. I am Terry Gross, and that is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: That is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. Let’s get again to the interview I recorded yesterday with New York Instances reporter Eric Lipton. He is been investigating how President Trump and his household have profited from self-enriching White Home deal-making, the conflicts of curiosity these enterprise offers current and the moral questions they increase. This yr, Lipton gained his fourth Pulitzer Prize. After we left off, we had been speaking a couple of Trump administration tungsten-mining deal in Kazakhstan. Inside weeks of the deal, Trump’s sons Don Jr. and Eric had investments associated to that mining deal.

So the commerce secretary, Howard Lutnick, who’s closely concerned in these tungsten offers – his sons are profiting too. Are you able to inform us extra about how they’re profiting or how they stand to probably revenue?

LIPTON: Yeah. So Lutnick – earlier than he grew to become the commerce secretary, he was operating an organization known as Cantor Fitzgerald, which has a bunch of arms. However one of many issues that they do is they assist startups increase capital. And so what we discovered was that concurrently Howard Lutnick is selling the USA as a investor in mining firms, his – Cantor Fitzgerald has been serving to among the identical mining firms increase a whole bunch of hundreds of thousands of {dollars} in personal capital.

In order commerce secretary, he – in his function on among the our bodies just like the Export-Import Financial institution and different federal businesses – these businesses have notified these firms that, we’ll offer you billions of {dollars} of financing. And on the opposite facet, the sons of Lutnick have been bringing them personal financing, and so they receives a commission charges.

And one of many causes that the businesses want personal {dollars} is that the federal authorities has come and mentioned, we’ll offer you public financing. So swiftly, it is rather a lot simpler for them to go to Wall Avenue and say, look, the federal authorities is giving us billions of {dollars} in financing. So do not you wish to put money into us? So then his sons are there, principally by means of their firms, and elevating personal capital for these identical mining firms. And so they receives a commission charges straight away. Whether or not or not these mining firms, you realize, succeed or fail, you realize, they will receives a commission a charge, and so they’ve made these charges.

So what we discovered was there have been, you realize, nearly a dozen firms that the Trump administration has agreed to assist finance that the Lutnick firms have additionally finished work with to assist them increase capital because the starting of 2025. So there’s simply, once more, an intertwining of the general public coverage actions that the dad is taking and the personal sector profitability that is coming from the actions that the sons are doing. It is a related factor that is taking place with the Trump sons that is taking place with the Lutnick sons.

Now, once more, each the White Home and the Commerce Division and Cantor Fitzgerald every assert that there aren’t any conflicts of curiosity, that the Trump sons are impartial businesspeople who’re making, you realize, choices to pursue, you realize, their very own enterprise pursuits.

And Cantor Fitzgerald makes the purpose, which is true – is that it had been within the mining sector for quite a lot of years and it is persevering with to assist its companions increase capital. These are true issues. But it surely does create an look, at a minimal, of a battle of curiosity as a result of, you realize, Howard Lutnick helps these identical firms and serving to deliver them billions of {dollars}’ value of capital concurrently the sons are serving to deliver personal capital to those identical firms. So it creates, at a minimal, an look of battle of curiosity.

GROSS: Wouldn’t it be truthful to say perhaps that is a purpose why Howard Lutnick should not be commerce secretary? If he’s intertwined with companies or if his sons are intertwined with companies he is presupposed to be serving to regulate, perhaps he isn’t the correct man for the job.

LIPTON: I imply, he has complied with the federal regulation, which requires him to divest of his holdings in Cantor Fitzgerald, and he has turned over his holdings to his sons and different members of the family. And so he doesn’t really legally have a battle of curiosity.

I imply, it’s an uncommon scenario to have a commerce secretary whose household is so deeply concerned in financing the identical sectors. You realize, we have written about this quite a lot of occasions now. The sons’ firm is financing information facilities, which, you realize, Howard Lutnick has been intensely concerned with. They’re funding the nuclear energy business, which once more, Lutnick is very concerned with, and so they’re funding the mining sector. And so in all three areas, Lutnick is driving federal coverage, and the sons are serving to fund the businesses which might be looking for to seize the earnings from these coverage modifications that his dad is making.

Now, it’s not a proper authorized battle of curiosity. But it surely does create the looks of a battle of curiosity on a scale that now we have maybe by no means seen for a commerce secretary, much like the form of – the dimensions of the battle of curiosity that we’re seeing with the president and his sons. It is simply at a stage that – it simply actually does not have precedent in American historical past. However is it technically unlawful? You realize, no, it is not, so far as I can inform. But it surely simply – it creates a mixing.

What – the factor is, in the USA, we’re used to separating, you realize, the job of operating the federal authorities from the job of operating your personal companies. And, you realize, we’re not the Center East, the place, you realize, you are run by, you realize, these – the royal household, and the royal household is each the federal government and the profit-making. You realize, the royal households – they’re – they personal the oil firm. They personal every part. They personal the financial system. And they’re additionally the decision-makers, and there is a mixing of these roles which is – that is the best way it really works within the Center East, within the sovereign, you realize, world.

However that is not the best way it really works in the USA. We have had a practice the place the those that run the federal government – they disassociate themselves from the personal sector pursuits. They put their holdings in blind belief. You realize, they’ve – and so they try to keep away from conflicts of curiosity. However the Trump household has chosen to behave in a different way. And there aren’t any formal federal prohibitions on doing what they’re doing, nevertheless it’s elevating a whole lot of questions. And it is also maintaining us fairly busy as reporters as a result of we’re decided to look at every one in every of these relationships that – to doc it, to deliver the info out, to make it clear and so folks can at the least learn about what’s taking place.

GROSS: Properly, let me reintroduce you once more. For those who’re simply becoming a member of us, my visitor is four-time Pulitzer Prize-winning New York Instances reporter Eric Lipton. We’ll be proper again. That is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: That is FRESH AIR. Let’s get again to the interview I recorded yesterday with New York Instances reporter Eric Lipton. He is been investigating how President Trump and his household have profited from self-enriching White Home deal-making, the conflicts of curiosity these offers current and the moral questions they increase. This yr, he gained his fourth Pulitzer Prize.

So let’s speak about one other sector that the Trump household and the Lutnick household are making the most of, and that is nuclear know-how. So one of many large latest occasions within the nuclear story is that Trump had seemingly made a cope with Saudi Arabia to promote Saudi Arabia nuclear know-how for a nuclear reactor. That deal apparently fell aside. Are you able to simply say a bit of concerning the deal and the way it fell aside earlier than we get into the conflicts of curiosity?

LIPTON: Yeah. So there was an settlement, which had been years within the making, to permit Saudi Arabia to have entry to civilian nuclear know-how from the USA to permit them to construct nuclear energy vegetation. And it is a approach of diversifying their financial system and likewise, you realize, to begin to transfer away from fossil fuels, as most of the Center Jap governments try to – they have been so depending on fossil gasoline wealth that they are making an attempt to diversify themselves.

And so relationship again to Trump’s first time period, they needed entry to the – Westinghouse, which is an American-based, Canadian-owned firm that builds these huge nuclear energy vegetation. They’ve needed entry to that know-how. And so for the primary time, the USA is now saying, we are going to let, you realize, purchase that know-how and truly, you realize, construct nuclear energy vegetation with it and likewise share the uranium, which has to energy these vegetation.

And that is the place the priority comes as a result of that very same uranium could possibly be processed, in the end, if it is not dealt with correctly, and made into plutonium or different, you realize, radioactive supplies that can be utilized in nuclear weapons. So there’s some considerations about nonproliferation that outcome from that deal. However that is what Trump has agreed thus far – to share the civilian nuclear energy know-how with Saudi Arabia.

GROSS: However that deal fell aside.

LIPTON: That deal – it is unclear whether or not or not it may transfer forward as a result of shortly after he introduced that, there was a good quantity of criticism. After which the president mentioned publicly for the primary time that to ensure that Saudi Arabia to get this, it must comply with the Abraham Accords, which is to normalize relations with Israel. And Saudi Arabia has been reluctant to do this due to the sophisticated nature of what is going on on within the Center East. And in order that – Trump’s demand that they comply with the Abraham Accords in trade for entry to civilian nuclear may imply that the deal doesn’t transfer ahead.

GROSS: So inform us a bit of concerning the plans that Trump’s sons have within the nuclear business. And whether or not it is immediately associated to the Saudi deal or not, Trump is making an attempt to emphasise nuclear energy, and that signifies that nuclear know-how will likely be in additional demand.

LIPTON: I imply, it is form of much like what we have seen with cryptocurrency and with mining and with the predictions markets. Once more, the Trump sons and President Trump himself are transferring to put money into the nuclear energy sector proper now. And it is without doubt one of the president’s prime initiatives. And once more, the commerce secretary is concerned on this. And the USA wants extra electrical energy desperately, as a result of the AI information facilities are consuming a large quantity of electrical energy – additionally simply shoppers’ air con, electrical autos. We’d like extra electrical energy and we aren’t constructing sufficient electrical energy vegetation. So one technique to cope with that’s to construct nuclear energy vegetation, which we have not finished on a big scale in a long time in the USA due to considerations concerning the security of nuclear energy.

So the Trump administration is pouring huge quantities of federal funds to incentivize extra nuclear energy being constructed each in the USA and internationally. We’re additionally pushing our allies to purchase, you realize, the Westinghouse AP1000 nuclear energy plant design and to construct it in Jap Europe and to construct it probably within the Center East. So we are actually a service provider of nuclear energy globally due to President Trump and Howard Lutnick and the Division of Vitality. However once more, this sample that we have seen elsewhere is what’s taking place concurrently the USA is pouring tens of billions of {dollars} behind this sector, the – President Trump and his sons and the Lutnick household are additionally traders – are making charges on the identical sector.

You realize, Trump Media, which the president is without doubt one of the largest shareholders of which owns Fact Social, the place he posts all of his social media, immediately, oddly, late final yr, they introduced that they’re transferring into the nuclear energy sector. I imply, it was a really bizarre, you realize – a social media firm goes to turn into a nuclear energy firm. In order that they introduced that they will merge with a nuclear fission firm, which is one other a part of the nuclear sector that the federal authorities helps attempt to enhance. In order that merger nonetheless has not occurred, however the president himself could possibly be financially benefiting from the push to construct extra nuclear energy as a result of Trump Media goes to turn into a nuclear energy firm itself.

And the Trump sons are additionally, you realize, stakeholders in that firm. Individually, the Trump sons have purchased into one other firm that’s making an attempt to assist construct a nuclear energy plant advanced in Texas. After which, once more, the Lutnick youngsters are serving to a whole lot of these nuclear startups increase capital within the personal sector market. So it is a sample that we have seen in cryptocurrency and, you realize, in vital metals and in nuclear energy, within the protection sector. It is this intertwining of public coverage actions and enterprise offers that contain the households.

GROSS: Is there any oversight about this? Is there any regulatory company or something that has to approve these offers?

LIPTON: The enterprise offers are largely being permitted by the Export-Import Financial institution, and Howard Lutnick is on the board of the Export-Import Financial institution.

GROSS: OK.

LIPTON: And so are different Cupboard members. And so simply actually essential to reiterate that each the Lutnick household, the Trump household, I imply, they do not see this as a battle of curiosity. The households see themselves as patriots which might be serving to construct essential financial sectors in the USA and that’s there is not any insider data. You realize, there’s folks which might be making an attempt to earn money to construct the financial system.

GROSS: What’s an alternate approach of taking a look at it?

LIPTON: I imply, at a minimal, there’s an look of a battle of curiosity, and there is an intertwining of the federal curiosity and personal curiosity, which is admittedly uncommon, and it creates – it undermines our confidence that the choices are being made primarily based purely on the deserves. And it does create the looks that a few of these choices are being motivated by need for particular person households to revenue. And it is hurtful to our confidence within the integrity of our authorities that there’s this blurring of strains, which simply historically, the USA has actually been dedicated to separating the private monetary curiosity of enterprise folks and the operations of the federal government that’s making an attempt to assist the general public at massive.

GROSS: What has Trump or the White Home or Lutnick or the Commerce Division needed to say to you about whenever you ask them about potential conflicts of curiosity or moral violations?

LIPTON: I imply, I interact with them fairly intensely, and so they’re typically very responsive, and we travel in the event that they assume one thing is factually incorrect. I actually respect their willingness to have interaction with me. They typically simply reiterate what I reiterate, which is that, you realize, the White Home simply says that the president has no conflicts of curiosity, and all he is doing is making an attempt to assist the American folks. The Trump sons, you realize, constantly say they’re personal businesspeople who’re profitable at what they do. And so they’re – and the Lutnick sons say that they – by means of Cantor – that they have been in these sectors for a very long time, and so they’re persevering with to assist personal companies increase capital. So I interact with them every time, and I get statements from them. And we embody the statements within the tales.

GROSS: So you’ve got identified how the Trump household and the Lutnick household are profiting within the sectors that Trump and Lutnick regulate. Is that taking place in different areas, too? And I am pondering particularly of Steve Witkoff, who’s the primary Center East negotiator, a particular envoy. And his sons are concerned with investments, and so they’ve labored with Trump sons on some issues. Are you able to speak about that a bit of bit?

LIPTON: That is proper. And it is, once more, tremendous odd. We’ve got these trio of sons – the Trump sons, the Lutnick sons and the Witkoff sons. And the Witkoffs are deeply concerned in World Liberty Monetary, which is the cryptocurrency firm that President Trump and his sons helped discovered simply earlier than he returned to the White Home. And that’s really, you realize, the – one of many largest sources of revenue of the $2.2 billion that Trump made in 2025. $1.4 billion got here from cryptocurrency, and World Liberty is a large supply of that. And so – and the Witkoff sons are serving to run World Liberty concurrently Steve Witkoff was concerned in negotiations within the Center East that benefited a few of their enterprise companions.

So every one in every of these is so sophisticated, you might speak about it for hours, and it is fairly a maze of challenges to form of deconstruct and clarify. However it’s a bit loopy that there are three totally different units of sons of outstanding leaders within the present administration which might be concerned in enterprise offers that profit from or intertwine with what their dads are doing in workplace.

GROSS: Let’s contact on the predictions market, which – it is such a controversial market proper now. You may wager on something. There’s insider buying and selling, together with – like, the man who runs Trump’s teleprompter was concerned with an insider buying and selling factor ‘trigger he learn the speech and he knew what Trump was going to say. So what are the enterprise offers that the Trump household is concerned with within the predictions market?

LIPTON: So once more, you’ve got a president who’s setting coverage by appointing a management on the Commodity Futures Buying and selling Fee, which oversees the predictions markets, concurrently the Trump sons are advisers to or have monetary ties to each of the 2 main predictions markets firms, Polymarket and Kalshi. So my two colleagues, Sharon LaFraniere and David Yaffe-Bellany, have largely been overlaying the predictions markets’ actions. But it surely’s one other venue the place there are these overlaps which might be very uncommon.

I imply, even now, Trump Media, along with turning into a nuclear firm, is providing to promote quick information of what his Fact Social postings are, that are instantly affecting the markets and the – and notably affecting the predictions markets. You realize, in the event you pay them a particular charge, you may instantaneously get entry to the content material of Trump’s social postings. And it creates an look of an insider buying and selling, you realize, transaction. And, you realize, Trump is the first shareholder of Trump Media, and his sons are concerned in operating the corporate. So – and Trump Media itself is seeking to transfer into the predictions markets. You realize, it is simply – in all places you look, there are a blurring of strains.

GROSS: So is Congress, which is managed by Republicans, investigating any of the tales that you’ve investigated and reported?

LIPTON: I imply, the Democrats proceed to ship letters to those businesses and to the White Home asking questions on many of those tales. We see these letters. However no. I imply, the Republicans who’ve subpoena energy in each the Home and the Senate – they’re engaged on, you realize, investigating Fauci and the pandemic or different issues that they are not. No. There’s not a single open investigation aside from – exterior of Epstein that has in any approach touched on Trump that I am conscious of. None of his enterprise operations have been topic to any congressional oversight by a majority committee.

And the Democrats are writing these letters, and so they typically do not even get responses. So the Congress has determined to not commit oversight to this matter, and that is simply the actual fact of the matter at this level.

(SOUNDBITE OF ROBBEN FORD & BILL EVANS’ “PIXIES”)

One of many issues I am questioning about whereas interviewing you is, how do you retain all these info in your head? ‘Trigger every of the sectors that we have been speaking about – the monetary schemes and the businesses that purchased firms that modified their names, that went public and so forth – they’re – every one in every of them is so sophisticated. And it will need to have taken a lot work on the a part of you and your fellow reporters. So that you do the work. You report it. However now you are still remembering it. How do you try this?

LIPTON: And one of many issues, every time I begin one in every of these tales, is I construct a chronology. I imply, it is identical to you are engaged on a time period paper in faculty or highschool. I construct a very detailed chronology of the sequence of occasions, and I’ve as many major sources with hyperlinks to the unique paperwork in that chronology. And that turns into my, like, guidepost to this – to the gamers and the person actions and the sequence of occasions. And after getting that chronology, you may see the interaction between what’s taking place within the authorities and what’s taking place within the personal sector and who the people are.

And the chronology, to some extent, turns into the story as a result of as these totally different, you realize, occasions are taking place and so they’re intertwined, you form of – it actually – it is like – nearly that narrative emerges from the chronology. So for every one in every of these investigations that I am doing, I’ve a grasp, like, very detailed day-by-day chronology of the occasions, the gamers, the businesses, the general public sector actions, the personal sector actions. And within the technique of engaged on this story, I am principally memorizing that chronology. And I additionally use the fact-check. As a result of each single reality needs to be so rigorously fact-checked as a result of if I make any mistake, consider me, they’ll pound me, you realize, and they’ll attempt to undermine the substance of the story primarily based on a small factual error. But when I’ve that date by means of a doc that is linked to my chronology, then I do know that it is correct. And so these chronologies are actually essential for me in every one in every of these investigations.

GROSS: Are they in, like, Phrase doc form of kinds or, like, some form of spreadsheet?

LIPTON: They don’t seem to be. I do not preserve them in a spreadsheet as a result of they’re, like, unpredictable codecs and lengths, every entry. So I simply principally – every part has a hyperlink to a major – I do not hyperlink to secondary sources. I hyperlink to major authorities paperwork, our SEC filings, our enterprise, you realize, bulletins. And it is, like, I really like my chronologies as a result of it is – like, it’s the backbone of the tales proper there. And I wait till the story emerges, and it helps me decide my characters and it assist me decide my dramatic moments. It helps me decide the – you realize, the place I wish to actually drill down and, like, report out a second that’s vital.

Like, for instance, the second that Howard Lutnick meets with the president of Kazakhstan on the St. Regis lodge in October of 2025 to attempt to deliver that tungsten deal. You realize, we – my colleague Paul Sonne and I had been engaged on that story and we – and the chronology confirmed us that this was a second we actually needed to report out. We – utilizing pictures, we discovered what lodge it was. We then acquired images of the room. We discovered what the title of the room was. We acquired the scene. I discovered audio of that day as a result of the president of Kazakhstan posted a clip from the assembly he had with Lutnick. And that – like, these had been the items of the narrative that got here collectively. And that was as a result of the chronology instructed us, this can be a second we wish to pull out.

And that is how I do these investigations, is that, like, I develop the chronology. The chronology tells me, you realize – this – as a author, the chronology is your good friend as a result of it is, like, the story occurs in a story. And there is narrative moments. There’s drama that occurs at sure narrative moments and also you wish to pull out that drama. That is – you realize, that is nonfiction drama, however you wish to let the chronology inform you that story. And that is – and so, I imply – however the – to reply your query as to how do I preserve monitor of all these info is I’ve a very stable doc that is on the base of every one in every of these tales.

GROSS: And that may present you, too, the timing of investments versus coverage…

LIPTON: Precisely.

GROSS: …And the way intertwined they’re.

LIPTON: And I used to be wanting at the moment body of the St. Regis assembly with the primary funding that the Trump sons had been concerned with with that very same firm, nevertheless it was earlier than the general public announcement.

GROSS: Earlier than the general public announcement.

LIPTON: And that is all within the chronology. And it was – like, solely as soon as that is lined up do you see here is what the – here is actually the story. And I do not attempt to begin writing a narrative like this till it is, like – it – I let it form of emerge to me – like, let the story form of unfold, and the characters, and the moments and the narrative peaks. I imply, it is all – it is about storytelling. I imply, every one in every of these tales is principally a backstory. It is like a story backstory of how does this deal come collectively and that we’re writing.

GROSS: All proper. It has been nice to speak with you.

LIPTON: Yeah.

GROSS: And also you’re really within the WHYY studio as we speak versus being in Washington, so we get to truly see one another, which has been pleasant.

LIPTON: Proper, as effectively (ph).

GROSS: So thanks a lot for coming to the studio, thanks a lot for this interview and for all the good reporting you’ve got finished.

LIPTON: Thanks. It is at all times nice to talk with you. It is the most effective alternatives to have long-form conversations in radio. So I at all times have a good time speaking to you and having a chance to actually get deep on tales.

GROSS: Eric Lipton is an investigative reporter for The New York Instances.

Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, my visitor will likely be author Claire Vaye Watkins. Just like the character in her new novel, Watkins lives within the desert, in an space being developed by an power firm wreaking havoc on the ecosystem. Her earlier novel drew on the lifetime of her father, Paul Watkins. He was an adolescent when he joined the Manson Household. I hope you may be part of us.

(SOUNDBITE OF CALEXICO’S “MINAS DE COBRE (FOR BETTER METAL)”)

GROSS: To maintain up with what’s on the present and get highlights of our interviews, comply with us on Instagram – @nprfreshair.

FRESH AIR’s govt producer is Sam Briger. Our senior producer as we speak is Therese Madden. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer as we speak is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and opinions are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Anna Bauman, Nico Gonzalez-Wisler and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Susan Nyakundi directed as we speak’s present. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I am Terry Gross.

(SOUNDBITE OF CALEXICO’S “MINAS DE COBRE (FOR BETTER METAL)”)

Accuracy and availability of NPR transcripts could range. Transcript textual content could also be revised to right errors or match updates to audio. Audio on npr.org could also be edited after its authentic broadcast or publication. The authoritative report of NPR’s programming is the audio report.

Leave a Comment Cancel Reply