Cities could supply an escape from rural oppression, however they continue to be unequal areas, structured by capitalism, housing and labour markets, and historic patterns of settlement. Vakulabharanam attracts parallels between caste-based segregation in India and racial segregation in america, and traces how colonialism, migration, and industrialisation proceed to form cities corresponding to Hyderabad and Mumbai.
Vakulabharanam, co-director of the Asian Political Economic system Program and affiliate professor of economics at College of Massachusetts Amherst, just lately delivered a lecture titled “Caste and Areas in Indian Cities” at Madras Institute of Growth Research, Chennai. On this version of Frontline Conversations, Saatvika Radhakrishna speaks with him.
Edited excerpts from the interview:
Every time most of us take into consideration caste, we instantly think about villages. What made you begin taking a look at cities as a substitute? Was there a selected second that made you suppose caste may be very a lot right here as nicely?
I grew up in a small city and, my creativeness was largely derived from residing in a small city for a very long time. Then I ended up learning in a small city within the US. Amherst is a small city the place I did my PhD. After that, I went to New York Metropolis and lived there for 3 years. That’s when my eyes actually opened to massive metropolis. And proper after that, I got here to Hyderabad. I taught on the College of Hyderabad. My PhD is on villages. I checked out farmer suicides in Telangana area.
So after I got here to Hyderabad, it was a novel expertise fascinated with varied social processes as they have been unfolding in cities. And one of many issues that I encountered in my friendship circles, but in addition relations and the bigger political circles that I used to be interacting with, I observed the caste was central to the way in which the establishment of marriage unfolded. And marriage is central to India far more than another nation on the earth. Extra folks get married in India in comparison with Europe or China.
Greater than 95 to 96 per cent of the folks get married. In order that’s a central establishment in India which governs class processes, governs gender processes. So I observed that your caste may be very a lot lively within the circles round me. That additionally impressed me to consider methods of research caste in giant Indian cities.
Many younger folks consider that when they transfer to a metropolis, they may instantly obtain equality or they may moderately instantly see equality. Now, out of your analysis, is that truly true or does caste simply find yourself displaying up in quieter or alternative ways?
So cities will not be equal in any respect. In financial phrases, they’re very unequal. Numerous cities that we see at this time are embedded in capitalism. Bigger capitalist processes have a tendency to intensify financial inequalities, class-based inequalities, which might additionally translate into caste-based inequalities. And you realize, in attention-grabbing methods, gender inequalities additionally emerge.
There are intersections.
There are. I imply, I choose to make use of the time period structure. One axis constitutes the opposite. However cities are very unequal. So if individuals are coming into the cities considering that it’ll be a extra egalitian way of life, then they haven’t understood the method of how cities work and reproduce themselves. In that broad sense, cities may very well be liberating. If you’re coming from a village the place your group is oppressed otherwise you’re alienated, or there’s a whole lot of violence towards your group, transferring to a metropolis offers you an area of anonymity, offers you an area of liberation from these on a regular basis relations that are likely to oppress you, whether or not it’s inside the family or between the family in different communities in a village. But it surely’s not about equality. So if younger folks come to the town with the thought of attaining equality, then they haven’t but understood the city course of. Cities are embedded in bigger social processes and in that sense, and caste can also be central and it doesn’t simply go away. It’s in all probability a view of liberation which doesn’t map onto how cities truly operate.
You discovered that residing in combined neighbourhoods helps with issues like schooling and escaping poverty. For somebody rising up in a metropolis, what probabilities when your neighbours are completely different from you? What modifications moderately when your neighbours are completely different from you?
So what occurs is in heterogeneous residing areas, there are very attention-grabbing mechanisms that kick in. So one of many mechanisms that might kick in is, if you’re from two completely different castes, the cultural processes of structure of who you might be could be completely different for these two people. So by interactions, it might produce an built-in consciousness, and that built-in consciousness might create, the next stage of understanding the world or, it might additionally create the next stage of tolerance. It’s not about liking one another, but it surely’s the method of, having a really completely different sort of an individual with a really completely different sort of constitutive processes, coming and residing with you in your neighbourhood, which creates a tolerance of a special type.
You settle for distinction. Acknowledging and accepting distinction is one thing {that a} neighbourhood in a metropolis can create. After which there are different processes like, you could possibly be, if you’re from very completely different castes, very completely different financial processes, one is in a proper sector, one other is an off-the-cuff sector. There’d be very attention-grabbing units of interactions, may very well be hierarchical as nicely. People who find themselves within the formal sector, larger, you realize, poorer folks, or folks from sure communities as family assist, drivers, automobile drivers. However what occurs there may be a whole lot of basically, folks within the formal sector depend upon folks within the casual sector to make themselves useful and reproduce themselves with some effectivity.
In that course of, some sure jobs can get created, sure data exchanges can occur, and this might probably profit individuals who, on either side, the formal derives its reproductive capability from the casual sector. And the folks within the casual sector, they could get new sources of information or data from these households which can be engaged for paid work within the forest sector.
However there is also a really attention-grabbing sec of interactions that may occur inside the neighbourhood. Suppose there are public items which are wanted, roads which are wanted, infrastructure that’s wanted, profitable mobilisation campaigns with the state to generate consumptive items are finished when there are completely different sorts of teams that work collectively. The households that are typically poorer profit additionally from residing in neighbourhoods with individuals who have higher affect in attaining a sure stage of infrastructure. So in that sense, having a combined or built-in neighbourhood tends to create larger ranges of growth outcomes.
Transferring on to the half in your research the place you in contrast Indian cities with American cities. After which in your speak, you rehashed it as nicely. You say that when Indian cities are in contrast with American cities, you additionally examine it on the premise of race. For college students who’ve solely seen this by films or social media, what is a straightforward technique to perceive that comparability?
So comparability is mainly what we’re doing on this ebook challenge, on growth and variety.
American cities or European cities, we will consider racial classes like blacks and non Blacks or whites and non-whites. So I imply there will not be simply whites and blacks on this society.
There are Asians, South People. They don’t belong, in a easy technique to white or Black. However you realize, whites and non-whites or Blacks and non-Blacks is a selected sort of dualism that can provide help to perceive the logic of segregation. And the thought behind the comparability is how built-in or segregative these cities are in Western international locations or World North. Do whites congregate collectively? Do Blacks are likely to congregate collectively? Or non-whites, do they have a tendency to congregate collectively? And examine it with the Indian setting the place we’re fascinated with both faith or caste.
So it may very well be Hindus and Muslims. Do Hindus stay with different Hindus? Do Muslims stay with different Muslims? Equally, castes which have had historic benefit, the so-called higher castes, do they have a tendency to cohabit and do Dalits are likely to cohabit? So at that stage of aggregation, spatial aggregation or spatial integration or spatial segregation, these processes could be in contrast.
That’s the level I used to be making. Indian cities, particularly for those who take caste or class, they’re extra built-in in comparison with American cities or European cities. Whereas for those who take faith, I believe processes of segregation have intensified during the last 30, 40 years. They’ve grow to be deeper within the final decade or so.
Vamsi says a contemporary metropolis like Mumbai has a big Muslim inhabitants. “However Muslims are distributed in all zones.” Within the image, individuals are strolling inside at Bharat Diamond Bourse in BKC, Mumbai, on September 2, 2025.
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EMMANUAL YOGINI
Cities like Hyderabad and Mumbai, they really feel very completely different even at this time. How a lot of that distinction comes from their previous and the way a lot are we nonetheless carrying historical past with out even realising it?
So that they’re completely different. However that’s the level of our ebook: why is that completely different? Trade does play a key constitutive function.
Bombay is a really trendy metropolis. Bombay is a metropolis that proved quickly within the nineteenth century partly throughout the opium commerce that occurred with British India and China. That’s when Bombay emerged as an essential city node in British India.
After which it has continued to develop after that. Hyderabad has a really completely different historical past. 4 hundred years in the past the Qutb Shahi dynasties and you realize, Mughals occupied then, you realize, publish Mughal interval you’ve the Nizam. There’s an extended historical past, a pre-modern historical past to Hyderabad and there’s a trendy historical past after the mid 18th, early nineteenth century. Then you’ve a post-colonial historical past. Whereas Bombay tends to have solely, the colonial historical past and post-colonial historical past, the pre-modern half just isn’t there. So these histories do matter in the way in which the cities are structured at this time.
For example, the town of Hyderabad, due to historic causes, an enormous a part of the Muslim group is concentrated spatially in a single or two spatial zones within the metropolis, what is called the previous metropolis which was the previous metropolis. Whereas a contemporary metropolis like Bombay has a big Muslim inhabitants. However Muslims are distributed in all zones. So the focus ranges are a lot low. In order that’s a product of historical past. Simply to provide you an instance of how Muslim communities distributed spaceship. That’s a product of historical past and, and in order that performs into the current and that performs a really lively and constitutive function of how the current is constructed.
We hear rather a lot about these world-class cities in addition to good cities. Now when cities chase this concept, what occurs to the individuals who already stay there however don’t fairly match into that picture?
So when a few of these concepts have been created throughout a interval which is broadly underneath what is called globalisation or neoliberal capitalism, publish Nineteen Seventies, 80s, you realize, these world class cities or good cities. Good cities is a newer concept. However these classes have been created throughout the interval publish Nineteen Seventies in international capitalism. And the essential level about these categorisations is there was an enormous shift in the way in which capitalism functioned.
Capitalism was centered in international locations. International locations had relations with each other between Nineteen Forties and Nineteen Seventies and cities have been embedded in international locations. Submit Nineteen Seventies you see a brand new growth the place the competitors internationally shifted from international locations to cities. So it’s a shift in spatial scale. So you progress from the size of the nation state to the size of a metropolis. So Chennai for example competes with Hyderabad. Or Bangalore competes with Hyderabad and Chennai to draw IT capital or to draw international capital or to draw capital from different cities.
So as soon as you realize this, the node of the town turns into an essential scalar node. Throughout this section of capitalism cities purchase a really completely different sort of significance. They grow to be the engines of progress and so they create hinterlands. So individuals are drawn from these hinterlands and assets are drawn from the hinterlands and delivered to the town. And cities are competing with each other for international assets. In order that’s the context through which, this entire framing of a metropolis as a world class metropolis and all that occurs. It’s mainly some form of a branding with a purpose to entice, larger assets from international capital. So you need to. You can’t separate, these labels from the section of capitalism. I believe it is a explicit section when the size shifts to the cities from the nation state.
Now, if a teen, allow us to say, requested you what would a metropolis with out caste discrimination truly really feel prefer to stay in, how would you reply that?
That’s a really robust query. So there are two liberatory fashions when you concentrate on caste. One liberatory mannequin is, you realize, castelessness. Annihilation of caste, as Ambedkar referred to as, that’s essentially the most fascinating. The opposite means, through which Indian cities have advanced or the nation state has advanced, Indian communities have advanced, is to make the relations amongst completely different caste teams much less hierarchical. Obtain equality with out dropping the caste identification. So these are the 2 fashions. So castes grow to be extra equal with each other or, you realize, you eradicate caste fully. These are the 2 fashions.
Within the context of cities, I can solely discuss what has occurred in India. Caste hasn’t gone away now. Caste has moved from villages to cities and caste has grow to be an everlasting establishment. It’s very sturdy, even in cities. Endogamy is one thing that’s practiced by most Indian city residents. It’s solely a really small portion of city residents who’ve been capable of reject caste endogamy and marry outdoors their caste. Though that aspiration has all the time been there and that phantasm has all the time been there that we don’t actually care about caste. So, in issues of marriage or romance or love, we don’t want to want caste to play a mediating function. However the actuality of it’s caste hasn’t gone away. Endogamy hasn’t gone away.
So one struggle, a direct struggle that is sensible to me is, if there are practices of discrimination, whether or not it’s the housing market, for example, in condominium complexes I’ve seen in my very own life, you realize, folks saying no to Muslim candidates. Particularly condominium complexes in Hyderabad. That’s a significant issue once you can’t discriminate towards a gaggle of individuals or a Dalit, in case, you realize, there’s a means of discovering out when the applicant is a Dalit. There are refined methods through which folks reject these candidates.
So these should be monitored rigorously. And the state has to implement insurance policies. Even inside civil society, our consciousness has to evolve with a purpose to query practices like that. Belongingness to a selected identification or group shouldn’t be a cause to reject an software for tenants in a metropolis. So that’s what is sensible to me proper now given the way in which Indian cities have advanced, the way in which Indian society has advanced.
Caste hasn’t gone away, however the struggle could, the preliminary struggle, no less than could also be in the direction of attaining equality, questioning follow of discrimination, questioning any follow of violence, any follow of oppression. First beginning with the markets, but in addition in public areas, how folks work together with each other. Labour market is one other essential area. There are refined methods through which caste remains to be practiced. And you realize, inside companies, you in all probability have heard in regards to the well-known Cisco story about how a Dalit applicant for promotion was discriminated towards by an individual belonging to a so-called higher caste. So caste doesn’t go away that simply.
Inside cities, whether or not it’s the housing market, labour market, product market, or credit score market.. credit score market you realize, asks a complete bunch of data from you earlier than they offer you a mortgage. So follow of discrimination can simply seep into credit score market transactions. So these should be monitored, these should be questioned. That’s what it could seem like to stay in a a metropolis which doesn’t follow caste discrimination.
Different issues being equal; caste shouldn’t be the rationale why an applicant is rejected in any of those markets or in any social course of or in any public course of that they take part in. However transferring to the following step, which is full castelessness. It hasn’t occurred to date. I consider that that’s the true preferrred that we ought to be transferring in the direction of in some unspecified time in the future in time. However that’s not how the society has advanced till now. So the primary struggle ought to be towards discrimination and create higher equality amongst caste teams. After which the following step could be questioning the very relevance of caste, in most significantly establishments like married or friendships or networks. Though it seems to be like, in Indian cities and Indian society may be very far-off from attaining that now.
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